Hello, fellow kiters.
I was flying a borrowed kite today. It's a cheap-o nylon delta stunt
kite.
My question is this: what could be causing the sluggish controls?
While I was flying the kite, just to make a large turn (either left or
right), I had to throw one arm all the way back as far as it could go
and let the other line fall completely slack. The kite is rated for
winds 7mph to 18 mph. I was flying in about 10mph to 15mph winds (on
average). Could it just be the wind speed, or could something on the
kite be tweaked?
Stephen.
Hi Stephen
It's a little hard to say without having actually flown the beast,
but in general, and in my fairly limited experience, the large turning
radius you describe is due to one of two things.
Either the bridle is set too light (too nose forwards) or the tow
points are too far out (too far from the centre-T).
To correct the first, make the top leg of the bridle longer. This has
the effect of pushing the nose back away from you and will make the kite
turn more tightly. It will also make the kite more "tricky" --
stalls, for example, are easier to initiate and maintain with a heavier
bridle. A heavier bridle will also give the kite some oversteer, the
actual amount depending on the length of the top leg of the bridle and
the wind speed.
Alternatively, you can move the tow points in towards the centre-T
which will enable the kite to turn more tightly with less arm movement.
As with most things in life, nothing is for free. For example, by
pushing the nose back you will not be able to fly the kite in as light a
wind as with the nose set more forwards.
The best description that I've come across on the web regarding
bridle adjustments is Allen Stroh's bridle tuning tips page. http://home.san.rr.com/kites/tuning_tips.html
This treatise on bridle adjustments is written for PBSKites but the
principles apply to other makes of kite. You might also consult Any
Wardley's http://www.kfs.org/~abw/
for a description of how to attach as much "string" as
possible to a kite :-)
Hope this helps.
Regards
James
Er, is this right? It seems logical, but I think the kite becomes
more precise with tow points towards the 'T' piece, and turns more
tightly with tow points AWAY from the 'T' (towards the wing tip).
Just thinking about a tip wrap - the tow point effectively goes
towards the tip and away from the 'T', that kite starts to do the
tightest pull turns - doesn't it?
I think ABW's cross activator has the same effect as it
'automatically' moves the tow point in or out depending on the line
input:-
" Straight flight - With equal and firm pressure on the lines,
the kite tracks well as the bridle locks into a position in which the
tow points are moved inwards. Turn/Spin - Increasing the pressure on one
line will move the tow point out to a position where the kite spins fast
and smoothly." http://www.kfs.org/~abw/kites/active/dihedral.html
I'm still working out the full design aspects of a sport kite, but
I'm sure someone can give the definitive answer.
Thanks
Alun J.
I've got to admit that this one confuses me a little too. All I can
say in my defence is that it seems to me that the point about which the
kite spins is more inboard the closer the tow points are to the centre-T,
hence the turns are tighter. If the tow points were actually both
attached to the centre-T itself (or very close to it) the kite would
spin about that point. It might be a little hard to control though!
Conversely, if the tow points were an infinite distance apart the kite
would not turn at all. That's how I see it, anyway.
Not when compared to the two ridiculous examples above.
I've gleaned most of the little info I know about bridles from Allen
Stroh's web site. None of my kites have active bridles as yet so I can't
really say much about those... but I will in a moment anyway :-) (I'm
currently waiting for one for my Illy and will buy either a Gemini or an
Elixir one of these days - can't decide which.)
Andy's active bridle design also moves the tow points up and down as
well as in and out depending on the amount of pull on the line -- a
slack line will allow the tow point to move out and down. This -- the
lower tow point -- obviously has some effect on the kite's turning
radius as it makes the bridle effectively "heavier" thus
making the kite more radical and increasing the amount of oversteer. (A
tip wrap moves the tow point down by a fairly large amount as well as
moving it out.) With taut lines, the bridle is made "lighter"
which aids precision as the turning radius is made larger.
I guess it all depends on which factor has the greater effect on the
kite: the in / out position of the tow point or its up / down position.
I've never really experimented to see how tow point movement affects
precision; I'm just speaking from memory. Some field work would seem to
be indicated, but I'll try to avoid your tip wrap scenario whilst I'm
experimenting!
I think I'd better stop now before I confuse myself even more and
make an even bigger fool of myself :-)
Andy, we need your help here if you're listening.
Regards
James
Hi James,
I've had a go at adding ABW pitch-activators and cross-activators to
standard static bridles. Very easy just tie on (triple-wrap slip knot!)
a bit of bridle line between two of the bridle legs about halfway down
so that they are pulled together a little - then just fiddle with
distances and lengths.
I found that the pitch activator helps a lot by 'automatically'
adjusting the kite for high and low wind, but I took the
cross-activators off as they changed the standard bridle into an overly
radical turn rate (for me) on the Stranger (I like to fly a bit of
precision with the Stranger :-) - also had similar experience with
Matrix but then again I don't like the standard dynamic bridle set-up
and prefer the feel of the static. Conversely the dynamic bridle on a
Prism 3D seems to work very well thought - confused?
Any help or comments greatly appreciated as always.
Thanks
Alun J.
Hi Alun
I had a quick play with my Illy's bridle (non-active) yesterday. The
kite definitely turns more tightly with the tow points pulled in. The
wind was very light so it was a bit hard to really get a good idea of
what was going on or how the kite would recact in a "normal"
wiind. The tow point adjustment at the Illy's centre-T also has the
effect of altering the angle of attack which, of course, affects the
spin tightness.
Sounds like an awful lot of fiddling to me.. which I'm bound to muck
up. I'll wait until I get (eventually) the active bridle that I've
ordered. I might well experiment with a few spare lengths of line on
other kites though.
Confused? Of course I am! I like my little 3D and wish that I was
able to fly it more often. The wind here (S. coast UK) is often too high
for the it. The 3D would, IMO, be quite a good kite to experiment on as
regards the various tow point positions. It's easy to adjust... and you
shouldn't have to walk too far back to the kite when you decide that
your changes don't work. :-)
Regards
James
In general, moving the tow point towards the wingtip (i.e. down and
out) will increase the kite's tendency to turn, making it turn faster
and tighter but with more oversteer. Moving the tow point away from the
tip will reduce its sensitivity, give better tracker but larger turns.
There's only so far you can go in any direction before the rules stop
working. If you move the tow point too far towards the tip or leading
edge then the kite will totally wash out in the turn. Too far in and it
might not turn at all. Too far up or down and the kite probably won't
even get off the ground.
This is something of an over-simplification, but it beats the complex
explanation. :-)=
A
hi Stephen
as well as the good points James made, don't forget the quality of
the flying lines. If they were "free" with the kite, they may
well be thick, heavy, and stretchy. See my NEWBIES web page for more
details.
cheers - tricky dicky
Just to throw a different slant on this discussion, is it not just
possible that the lines supplied with this kite are just cheap polyester
flying line and are just too stretchy. You get what you pay for. - Dave
Adding ABW pitch activators and cross activators to a standard static
bridle really is easy - honestly. If the bridle is set up as you like
it, adding a pitch activator will tilt the kite 'automatically' and
really help out in low winds and stalls. If the effects don't please,
it's also easy to take the extra pieces off and return the bridle to
standard. The only difficult bit is having enough time and *weather to
do everything I would like to though :-)
Like you say, the latest kites come with advanced bridles and are
ready to go - way cool.
Big thanks to Andy for taking the trouble and time to respond - I'll
be trying pop lateral this weekend* as fade flic-flacs are my fave.
Thanks
Alun J.
Hey there... i have been flying with an HQ Passion lately and find it
incredibly hard to pancake... this is frustrating because i'm trying to
learn a flat spin. Anyways.... my question is should i make an active
bridle for this kite? Has anyone tried it? Any tips or advice? Are there
other bridle options? How can I make the kite more radical by adjusting
the bridle in it's current configuration? is there a way even?
Thanks a lot!
Alot of people have focused on bridle, frame, etc. I think the
question you should be asking is what am I doing wrong, rather than what
is wrong with my kite. Good technique will always out fly gadgets and
gizmo's. Now if it was cornering that would be different, as the passion
will feel very different with different bridle settings. Anyway back to
your question.
The problem I see most with people doing pancakes is that they are
trying to use small movements in their arms in wind that is probably too
much for them. So what does this mean? If the wind is higher, try it off
to the side of the window. Also you can over come the pressure by
speeding the kite up as it goes down. This will allow 2 things. 1) Your
kite speed will be beyond that supported by the wind so it will be
easier to luff. 2) Your arms will be behind you allowing you to throw
them farther forward when you go for the pancake.
To do a good pancake can take alot of forward arm and body movement.
Try this:
1) dive and sweep your arms back with a step back. Time it so that
you dont crash doing it.
2) When you have pulled back as much as you can, throw your arms
forward while lunging forward. You can lunge faster than you can run, so
hope this is enough for the wind you are in.
Your hands should move about 8 feet in 1 second assuming you are an
average adult. The entire trick to getting a pancake is the speed into
it followed by fast slack. If it wont pancake it's because you cant
slack it fast enough. If you dont believe it try this experiment. Dive
it toward the ground and accelerate. About 10 feet from the gound let go
of your lines. Watch your kite pancake, and then chase it down the
field. You may even go past into yo yo. The only difference is how much
you speed it into the dive and how fast you can release it. Passion is
not a very difficult one to pancake so you should be able to learn this
with some practice.
Walt
Hi Dave,
First let me say that I agree with everything Walter said. The fact
that you said you are trying to learn the flat spin tells me you may
need more practice. In time you will be able to pancake any kite, in
almost any wind no matter what the bridle setting.
But, I believe that you will learn faster if you are able to flatten
out the kite. So to answer your question, no I would not recommend
building an active bridle. The bridle on the kite is fine. The Passion
is an excellent trick kite, it requires larger movements than some, but
still a blast to fly.
To answer your second question, yes, there is an adjustment to make
on the factory bridle to make the kite flatten out easier. Generally a
kite is setup at the factory for its average wind speed. The basics of
bridle adjustment are, move tow point up for lighter wind, move tow
point down for stronger wind. There are many other factors but that
should get you started. Moving the tow point up gives more lift but
makes the kite turn slower, moving the tow point down puts the kite in
more of a stall attitude and makes it turn faster. You will find that
any adjustment you make to the bridle to improve one characteristic you
will effect another.
Getting to the answer of your question, move the tow point down to
make the kite flatten out easier. Begin with small 1/8" adjustments
and continue till you get the desired effect. The wind speed will play a
big factor in the ease of tricking. Trick fliers like light wind because
it allows you to manipulate the kite at will without having to fight the
wind.
Hope that helps
Mike Coons
Hi Folks.
Good advice all round, as usual.
I had one of the first Passions to play with. I found that on the
factory setting it was a great all-round kite (A good job done by Alex
Hesse of HQ). I could do all the things I wanted to do, but I still
wanted to fiddle.
I ended up moving my bridle down by about 2.5cm and out by the same.
The second move kept the steering the way I wanted it. The problem with
dynamic bridles is that you need to do two movements if you only want
one change to take affect.
But as everyone says. The best thing to do is practice, practice,
practice. You can do it big boy ;O)
Chris.
Hi Dave,
All I have to say is Mike and Walt are correct. I own a Passion and I
can do most tricks just fine with the stock bridle. In the years I've
been flying I have found that its mostly practice and developing the
proper technique for the trick. Finding other flyers to hang with helps
too. The 540 Flatspin took me a while to get, but its a most impressive
maneuver.
Peace & Good Winds to all,
Ted
Yes, I've been there too. I agree with all the advice others have
given, just keep practising and practising and pr... you get the idea
:-)
I found it to be a kind of leap of faith. Flying your kite straight
down and throwing your arms forward fast enough to pancake - you know
the first few (many) times tried, it just keeps heading straight down,
and then becomes a battle to turn before hitting ground.
Once the speed/technique/muscles have been acquired to pancake it
becomes second nature, and you will know exactly what is required to
achieve a pancake for the given wind conditions.
Starting out, it is much more easy to pancake in light wind. When the
kites at the bottom of its wind range, and you are doing a fly-away walk
a bit too fast and it pancakes when you perhaps didn't want it to..so
the higher the wind the more fast a throw forward is required.
If the kite is in a 'nice' wind, point it downwards while pulling
both hands way behind your back, start to walk forwards and then try
throwing your arms forwards. That little walk really does help in higher
winds.
When I started to pancake to go into a Fade rather than half-axle to
Fade, my arm and chest muscles would ache for the next week, and I
noticed that my upper chest muscles have now changed shape! (a bit ;-)
Forgive me if you know all this, and were just after specific bridle
information, but my take is.. to become a good (sport) kite flyer,
things should be learnt at the most basic level, so that any kite can
then be appreciated.
On the other hand, some kites do pancake more easily than others, so
you could say learn a move on a kite that it is easily achieved with,
and then it will become more easy to transfer that knowledge to other
kites. There have been posts relating to the back-spin and this point of
view.
I was discussing the pancake/540 at my local flying field this last
weekend, and one comment was "throw the lines at a (Benson)
Outer-Space and it will pancake and 540.."
Me, I'll just keep muscle building with the Matrix and Stranger for
the time being :-)
Alun J. (UK)
Whenever I teach someone to 540 the thing that always nails it is
using their feet to get a better kill. Walt kind of said this but I'll
re- iterate it because it is important.
Say your flying down, slightly toward the left hand side and you're
going to pop the 540 with your right hand...
As you fly the kite down you want to accelerate it just before the
kill, as well using your hands swing your right foot back so your left
foot well in front of the right and pull your hands right back on the
way down. Now when you kill the kite take a big stride forward from your
left onto right foot as you throw your hands forward. That way when you
kill the kite you throw the lines forward the distance covered with your
feet plus that with your hands ie: about 8ft so you get a great kill
without running forward too much.
Keep at it, it's not an easy move to learn but it is one of those
where once you've done it a few times it comes quickly and easily. --
Ian Newham
